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This episode begins with a reading from Francesca Giacco, who shares a gorgeous excerpt from her debut novel, Six Days in Rome. Here’s more from Francesca.
Francesca Giacco: My name is Francesca Giacco. I’m a writer. I live in New York, and I’m the author of the novel Six Days in Rome.
As much as my novel is an ode to Rome, it’s also a tribute to traveling alone, which is an experience that I think forces a person to slow down and pay attention, which for me has always involved being in close proximity to my imagination, and this is true for me in writing and in living.
In these paragraphs I’ll read, Emilia—who is the main character of the novel—is wandering the city center. She’s using these quiet moments and the evocative surroundings to process what’s brought her to this point in the book. She’s dealing with heartbreak in a few different ways, and she’s considering the direction she wants to take.
PASSAGE READ BY FRANCESCA GIACCO ︎ PURCHASE SIX DAYS IN ROME︎︎︎
Rachel Schwartzmann: Thank you so much again to Francesca for sharing. You can purchase Six Days in Rome anywhere books are sold and read more of Francesca’s work online at https://francescagiacco.com/. Now, here’s my interview with Lisa Taddeo.
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Rachel Schwartzmann: Let me start by saying this: Lisa Taddeo’s work is anything but slow. From her acclaimed work of nonfiction, Three Women, to her unforgettable debut novel Animal, Lisa’s writing is not merely an invitation into a story but a rallying cry to recognize the full scope of the human experience. Time and time again, her readers are pulled into honest—often devastating—examinations of rage, grief, and what it means to be a person in the world. The same can be said for her latest book, Ghost Lover, a collection of stories that “brings to life the fever of obsession, the blindness of love, and the mania of grief.”
For Lisa, life moves quickly, especially now. But her enduring exploration of grief creates space to talk about the often slow process of overcoming heartbreak or pain. And because of this, her stories stay with you long after the last page. And in this interview, Lisa shared more about the pace that drives her practice, why she’s drawn to short stories, and what she’s learned from writing about people.
I spoke with Lisa on a hectic day in late April, and once again, I was humbled by her honesty both on and off the page—but if you’re new to Lisa’s work, I don’t want to share too much more. So, without further delay, here’s my conversation with Lisa Taddeo, author of Ghost Lover, Animal, and Three Women.
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Lisa Taddeo: I value peace and serenity. I have a lot of anxiety. So outside of writing ... you know, it’s funny, even as I’m saying that. I’m like, “Whoa, hold on a second. I value peace and serenity, but I don’t do much to try to get myself that.” [Laughs] I really love just sitting at long tables, eating dinners with friends and my family. That’s the biggest thing I value. I work towards that being like how I get to release. Rachel Schwartzmann: I think it’s probably a necessary contrast to a lot of the themes in your work, which often deals with rage, grief, pain—difficult but necessary themes. And I think, just on the subject of peace, what stories have been bringing you peace and serenity lately?
Lisa Taddeo: Oh, that’s a good question. I haven’t really had a lot of time to do much reading or watching, but I’ve gone back... I always go back to William Trevor’s collected stories. Whenever I’m a little bit anxious, it feels like a balm to me—his way of writing, the way that he talks about life—I always go back to William Trevor.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Is there a line of his that always resonates with you?
Lisa Taddeo: Not his—I mean, yes, of course. Many. Not that I can think of right now. But the line that I always think about in things that I both write and read is: “Art is meant to comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable.” And that’s something that works for me on both sides, in both producing in my own writing and in reading other people’s writing... I am the disturbed who likes to be comforted. So when I write, I’m not so much trying to disturb the comfortable as I am trying to comfort the disturbed. But I think that if the other effect of that is, you know, the comfortable thinking about the disturbed more. That’s a really big goal of mine.
Rachel Schwartzmann: It definitely comes across. I was just thinking, as we talk about books, I actually just finished Tove Ditlevsen’s The Trouble with Happiness. Have you read any of her work?
Lisa Taddeo: Oh no, I have not, but I really want to.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Those stories were very quietly heartbreaking. But I kind of recognized a lot of parallels in your own work, just in the sense of her characters searching for something beyond feeling disturbed or unsettled in their daily life and just the general feelings of longing. And there’s a line that I feel like you would appreciate in one of her stories. But basically, one of the characters was musing that if you’re feeling betrayed, you are betrayed.
Lisa Taddeo: Oh wow. [Laughs] That is so—I have to tell you that that has got to be one of the most apropos things that I’ve heard for where I’m at right now. So I have to really thank you for that. [Laughs]
Rachel Schwartzmann: You’re just kind of you’re going along—she talks about a lot of domestic life—I don’t know, just kind of come across a line like that. It’s almost like we don’t know how to trust our own minds until [we] read something like that.
Lisa Taddeo: Mm-hmm. Exactly. That’s really great. Wow.
Rachel Schwartzmann: And I think just on the subject of your work—we’ll obviously get into Ghost Lover shortly—but I also saw that you recently guested-edited AnOther Magazine’s Document section.
Lisa Taddeo: Yes.
Rachel Schwartzmann: And you wrote a really riveting introduction about time. It’s something that I’m interested in—at least with Slow Stories—especially as it relates to our relationship with pace and slowness. And there was a line in that letter where you said:
“I am itching to crawl out, to read the bedtime story article, to finish some notion of work, which is an illusion because work can never be done, and will I never exist in the present?”
I’m sure at this moment, thinking about the present is probably a tricky thing, just given that you’re pulled in a million different directions, but how do you bring yourself back to the present as a writer, and what does the present mean as a writer?
Lisa Taddeo: Oh God, that’s a great question. I don’t know. I’ve never fully lived in the present. I meant what I said in that intro. It was not written out of nowhere. [Laughs] I don’t know how to pull myself [out]... like I’ve tried meditation. I haven’t found the exact right form of meditation that will work for me. And it’s really hard for me to pull myself back in. A lot of my writing is about the past. I am stuck in the past in so many ways, and I guess writing is the way that I stay in the present. I guess. It’s so funny—you’ve given me a couple of really lovely things to think about. But I think that that is exactly right: that when I write, I am in the present, even if I’m writing about the past.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Is it almost like you’re watching yourself write? Do you daydream? I’m just trying to understand your psyche, too, because it’s probably very time-consuming to go into the past and kind of mine for things.
Lisa Taddeo: Do I daydream? You know, that’s what I said when I was like, “I guess when I’m writing, I’m in the present.” If I’m walking down the street, sometimes I see something on the ground that makes me think of something from my past. I write it down because I want to sort of unpack it more later. So that’s what I do writing-wise.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I know it’s probably a loaded question and one that can change every day—but in terms of just current projects, you’re currently working on the [television] production of Three Women. That’s another medium—you’re kind of seeing your words come to life in a really life-changing way. But I’m curious how that project has also challenged or impacted your notion of time and what it means to be present.
Lisa Taddeo: It’s been really, really hard. [Laughs] It’s been really hard because it takes up literally—I mean like constant sort of text messages of, “Oh, we have to change her hair to this. We need to know in the next forty-five seconds.” So it’s that kind of stuff. It’s really hard to manage time. And to write ... When you’re constantly rewriting scenes to fit time for production, it’s just a twenty-four-hour-a-day job. And it has impacted me a lot. It’s been a lot of work to try to figure out how to get around it and how to keep writing and stay sane.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Are there elements that have slowed you down in some way, even if it’s been forced? What is the tension there between the things that do need that level of detail and attention?
Lisa Taddeo: I think sometimes it’s other people’s stress and having to manage that while managing your own.
Rachel Schwartzmann: What about creatively?
Lisa Taddeo: It’s hard to be creative when you’re on a forty-five-minute deadline.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Taddeo: It’s really hard. [Laughs]
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah. Well, I guess sometimes what they say is true: less can be more. [Laughs] You’re like, “Sure.”
Lisa Taddeo: [Laughs]
Rachel Schwartzmann: Well, let’s talk about Ghost Lover, too, an incredible collection that again brings your long-standing explorations of desire, power, and relationships into focus. I know that you’ve published these stories over the years, maybe in various forms, but why did it feel like the right time to put this collection out into the world?
Lisa Taddeo: You know, I’ve really wanted to help future generations of young women. When I was in my twenties, living in Manhattan, I was very alone. I had lost my family. It was hard for me to get through the days. And dating and doing all of that—trying to sort of distract myself from the bigger grief of having lost my parents—brought its own level of panic with it. And so Ghost Lover ... it’s a love letter from me, in a sense, to all young women...
You know, I remember sitting on the floor, eating takeout [in] our apartments with my friends at the time, and just saying like, “You know, is he ever gonna call again? Am I ... just tell me I’m gonna see her again?” All of that sort of stuff. That anxiety that we put into love because we just want someone to sort of see us and love us is so trenchant and powerful. I just wanted to sort of give that message to the world: I’ve been there, and you’re not alone.
Rachel Schwartzmann: We definitely need that reminder. And I think in another interview—it might have been with Dua Lipa—you mentioned that you would just love nothing more than to sit and write short stories all day.
Lisa Taddeo: Yes. [Laughs]
Rachel Schwartzmann: What is it about a short story that compels you?
Lisa Taddeo: It just feels like a compact zone where you can—both for the reader and the writer—just sort of go in and out. And for me, the best short stories pack a sort of wallop of what life is about, but in a sort of controlled manner of just being able to digest and have a mini spiritual experience, hopefully, in a sense. And you know ... we’re so pressed for time these days that for me, being able to go in and out of something like that has always made me feel the safest.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I feel like, for me, I almost have to put more investment into a short story.
Lisa Taddeo: Oh really?
Rachel Schwartzmann: Just because you’re kind of dipping into a moment—as a reader anyway, I kind of want to make sure I get as much, I don’t know, not context, but soak in as many of the details so I can really understand. I also feel like I’ve learned that I really like linked collections, too.
Lisa Taddeo: Oh yeah, me too. I do, too. Linked collections are like the kind of best bridge between a novel and a collection.
Rachel Schwartzmann: You should definitely check out Cara Blue Adams’s You Never Get It Back and Brandon Taylor’s Filthy Animals.
Lisa Taddeo: Oh yeah. I have read Filthy Animals. I love it. It’s beautiful.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I know. I won’t add more to your never-ending to-do list. [Laughs] But, [there are] so many good collections.
You know, it’s interesting. This is a question I’ve been asking a lot of writers on this podcast because I think it’s something that we’re all sort of dealing with in any context of life. It’s also something that you’ve naturally explored in your work. But I’m curious, in your opinion, in what ways is writing about grief the same as writing about power—or about love?
Lisa Taddeo: I think that in grief, there is a sense of power because everything else falls away, and you’re like, “I don’t give a flying f— about anything because I’m feeling grief right now or fear or panic.” So, that, for me, is probably the way that grief and power intersect. When everything else falls away, there’s a power in like, “Okay, that’s it, and now I have to start from scratch.” I don’t know if that answers your question, but that’s the first thing that came to my mind.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah, it does. And I’m curious too, with grief or just generally when you’re writing, are you writing toward any sort of resolution, or is it really just to get thoughts down on a page?
Lisa Taddeo: I think I’ve always been looking for a way to deal with grief. I think I’ve been looking for a way to deal with grief for a very long time. And yes, that’s the main resolution I’m always looking for when it comes to that. I’m looking for what the meaning is, in a sense.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Do you think you’ll ever find it?
Lisa Taddeo: [Laughs] I don’t know. My next book is a book about grief. So, hopefully, that is where I’ll find it. But at the same time, it’s also something that I’m really nervous about really diving into. So yeah, but I mean, that is what I’m planning.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I’m excited to read that—maybe a little nervous, but in the best way. And I think the other thing about grief—whether you’re experiencing it, reading about it, writing about it—is that it really does force you to see and to look. I think that is such a compelling part of the stories in this collection is that you’re really taking the reader into the psyche of these characters, making them see things that they might not want to be looking for in the first place. And in your story, “A Suburban Weekend,” there was a line where one of the main characters, Fern, marveled at “how many dead people are still alive.”
Lisa Taddeo: Mm-hmm. [Laughs]
Rachel Schwartzmann: And that was kind of jolting in a way. It’s a painful statement, but it’s so true to how we edit or numb ourselves to get through the world. So, what have you learned about looking at people and writing about people both in fiction and in nonfiction?
Lisa Taddeo: I have learned that... we are so afraid. Fear rules us all. And fear rules me for sure. When I say all, I mean, you know, many of us who are sort of going through stuff, I think that it’s always sort of a sense of fear and shame that just is what drives us to kind of make bad decisions—or any kind of decision at all—that is mean to another person. It always comes from fear and sense of shame. That’s the biggest thing I’ve learned.
Rachel Schwartzmann: The uncertainty, when it swirls into fear, is something I’ve learned to carry around in my pocket and just kind of acknowledge that it’s there. Do you ever think it can be productive?
Lisa Taddeo: Do I think fear can be productive? God, that’s a good question. I don’t know. Right now, I’m in a state of total fear, so it’s really hard for me to answer that question. I’m in a state of fear because I’m working on this show; it’s a twenty-four-hour-a-day thing, and I’m trying to find childcare, and dealing with all of that stuff is just a full-time issue. And worrying about my daughter when she’s not with me is a full-time thing. So, I’m just in a generalized state of complete panic right now. So do I think it can be productive? My answer right now is no. [Laughs]
Rachel Schwartzmann: So you might have already answered my next question, but looking at your entire sort of practice, how would you describe your relationship with pace, and how has it evolved?
Lisa Taddeo: I was always working at a fast pace. Now, the amount of things I have to do is kind of overtaking the pace ... pace has kind of been swallowed whole by this machine of television. So I think I had a good pace at one point, and now I’m like, the pace is just overtaken the work, to be perfectly honest. I’m so sorry, Rachel. I feel like I’m in a wild place, and I’m just being totally honest! It’s a lot. And yeah, I’m feeling a lot of things. [Laughs]
Rachel Schwartzmann: I would be kind of surprised if you weren’t! I mean, I was just so happy you even had time to do this interview, so thank you for that.
Lisa Taddeo: Of course.
Rachel Schwartzmann: You know, if you can slow down, what parts of your writing process do you get to luxuriate in?
Lisa Taddeo: My favorite thing is writing when everyone’s gone to bed because I feel like I don’t need to take care of anyone at that time, and no one’s writing emails to me. But like last night, for example, I came home from set at 3:00 AM, and my daughter woke up. I have been going into her room and snuggling with her, and she was like, “Come snuggle,” and I was like, “I still have more work to do.” So she came and slept on my lap while I continued working. I mean, when I say it’s constant, I’m not exaggerating in the slightest.
Rachel Schwartzmann: But, it’s worth it?
Lisa Taddeo: I’ll let you know. [Laughs] I mean, it’s so much. We’re just at a place right now ... it’s a wild amount of work, and the pace is kind of insane.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I’m just always curious: what comes to mind when someone hears the words: “slow stories”? What does that evoke?
Lisa Taddeo: Something that… a William Trevor story, to be honest. Like whenever I’ve seen Slow Stories—I mean listened or seen it on my schedule for this week—it evokes a sense of a William Trevor piece where you can fall into it gently and easily, take your time with it, be in a sort of good emotional space. Just kind of take a breath to listen to someone else’s way of life.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I think the listening part is key. The level of attention.
Lisa Taddeo: Yeah.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Do you consider what you do to be slow—in the sense that it forces people to kind of engage in a way that they might not normally?
Lisa Taddeo: I don’t know if I would call it slow, what I do necessarily. [Laughs] I feel like it’s a little bit faster. It’s funny. One of my friends who read Ghost Lover was like, “You just don’t let people come up for air, and I love that about you,” which I really liked. I mean, I really liked that, but I also, you know, I’m like, “Oh God, I don’t want people to feel like they can’t come up for air!” So, I don’t feel like my stories are slow.
I think that I have often aspired to write stories that are slow—like a William Trevor story, like an Alice Monroe story. But I think that that’s not kind of where my talent lies, to be perfectly honest. My pace and everything about the way that my anxiety works is kind of more like, go, go, go, go, go.
Rachel Schwartzmann: That’s fair. I’m learning about how I read through this conversation—because everything that you’ve written it’s forced me to slow down to really make sure I’m doing the story justice. So, while I agree with what your friend said, I think there is an element that forces you to really just dive in, even when it’s uncomfortable, if that’s worth anything.
Lisa Taddeo: It is. It is. It’s worth a lot, actually. Thank you.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I think another exploration with Slow Stories that I’m always curious about—especially when I’m talking to artists or writers—is how operating or creating in our digital age kind of impacts their process. And so, has there been any revelation in terms of the role of technology or social media in terms of how you’re connecting with people or thinking about storytelling at this point?
Lisa Taddeo: It’s so hard! Oh my god, it’s so hard because, generally, when I’m writing, I try not to look at my emails and stuff. But when I’m writing in this sort of a space, I have to because it’s: “Well, I can’t write that scene anymore because that person’s not going into that room; we can’t afford that room anymore.” So it’s like a constant influx of notes coming in while writing kind of is the antithesis of what I think most writers or any artist would want while they’re working, which I think makes for a very, very, very challenging space.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Have you learned any ways to cope or have any advice for writers who might be listening? [Laughs]
Lisa Taddeo: [Laughs] You know, I think that the next time I do this, I will have more information. I think I came into this kind of not knowing a lot, listening to the way other people had done things before, which is not necessarily what works for me. And I think it’s hard whenever you are new at something to kind of bring your new ideas into it. People who have been working in it for a long time are kind of like, “Well, that’s not the way it goes.” And it’s like, “Okay, well, this is the way I’m doing it because it’s my process.”
There’s also, you know, to be perfectly, very, very honest in every world—but specifically not specifically, but I mean, as I’m finding very much so in the sort of TV/Hollywood world, it’s men have been in charge for so long that now that there are women in charge, I think that it’s really hard.
I remember reading something about David Foster Wallace getting upset that someone had changed, like taken a period of his out of something he had written. Whereas… And that’s something in TV male writers; it’s like, “That’s the scene I wrote; shoot that scene.” With females being the creators and in charge, it’s like, “oh don’t, we can’t do that. You gotta redo that...” There’s a sense of not being deferential to a woman that I am very conscious of on a daily basis. And I think it mostly comes from other women, to be honest. And I think that we’ve been sort of socialized that this is the way it is, and this is the way it has to keep being. And at the same time that we—you know, I bring this up a lot in my work, and in other ways... I just feel like the next time I do this, I’m going to be very clear.
I think I walked into things; I’m being really honest—and I probably shouldn’t be being this honest on a podcast [Laughs]—but I’m being really honest because I’m going through something right now, which is really, really difficult. And it feels like if I had walked into this and kind of, you know, said, “I’m the boss, and we’re doing it my way.” It would’ve been all fine. But what happened instead is I walked in and said, “What can I learn from everyone?”... which, I think, is the right way to be a human in the world, but I don’t think that certain jobs are built for that. And when people think that you’re going to be open to manipulation, in a sense, they will manipulate you.
That was a hard lesson to learn, and it’s done a lot to sort of hurt my trust level in other people—and that’s a specific thing. The actors, the directors, everybody on this show is absolutely fantastic and brilliant! And I’m so lucky to have that. But there are areas that I have felt from sort of the top-level people that there’s a sort of like, “Oh, you know, we can just tell her what to do.” And I decided that that wasn’t gonna happen anymore. [Laughs] So my motto is: “Now I know.”
Rachel Schwartzmann: That’s a hard one. I mean, I think it does kind of require an enforced stillness to kind of stop, look around, and take the reins back in a way.
Lisa Taddeo: Totally.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Well, I have no doubt it’s going to come together. I think everything has ebb and flow. But as you kind of continue to ruminate on this process, your work, your life, is there a question that you hope people start asking you more often?
Lisa Taddeo: “Am I going to be okay?” And the answer is “yes.” That’s always my goal in writing. I want people to know I have been there. I have been where you are—not where everyone is—but I have been in dark moments, and I always want people to feel less alone in their dark moments. And so that’s what Ghost Lover was really for. I have been there, and you’ll get through it.
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Rachel Schwartzmann: That was Lisa Taddeo, author of Ghost Lover, Animal, and Three Women. You can purchase Lisa’s books anywhere books are sold—though we recommend supporting local and independent bookstores if you can. You can also follow Lisa on social at @lisadtaddeo. Stay tuned, as we’ll be sharing highlights from this episode on our own channels @slowstoriesofficial on Instagram and @slowstoriespod on Twitter. I’m Rachel Schwartzmann, and you’ve been listening to Slow Stories. Thank you so much for tuning in.