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Rachel Schwartzmann: Welcome to Slow Stories. I’m Rachel Schwartzmann. I'm a writer, creator, and the author of Slowing: Discover Wonder, Beauty, and Creativity through Slow Living, coming September 17th from Chronicle Books.
For those of you just tuning in, Slow Stories is a multimedia project that began with this podcast and now includes a newsletter on Substack. There, I write about things like time, creativity, and pace—and on this show, I interview artists, entrepreneurs, and innovators who share slow stories—and big ideas—about living, working, and creating in our digital age.
So before we get into the episode, I wanted to share a really exciting announcement: I've spent the last couple of years writing and revising my first book, Slowing, which is out September 17th of this year with Chronicle Books. That said, it's now available for pre-order anywhere books are sold. And for those of you who don't know, pre-orders are incredibly important for all authors—but especially first-time authors like myself. They signal to bookstores and retailers that there's interest in the book and really lay the foundation for my career as an author, which I'm excited to continue.
All that to say, I'll be sharing much more about Slowing in the coming months, and you can follow Slow Stories on Substack for those updates and follow me [on social media] @rachelschwartzmann. But for now, I'll leave you with this: Slowing caters to many literary sensibilities: essay and memoir, creative wellness and personal growth. Language and lyricism are front and center, but there is also a practical component. There are various ways you can engage with and experience this book. For that reason, I don't know where exactly you'll find it on the shelf, but I'm confident it will fit somewhere in your home. That's where I wrote it, and that's what it means to me. I can't wait for you to read it!
Now, on to the episode, which begins with an opening story from Sam Cohen, who shares musings on a particular color. Here's more from Sam.
Sam Cohen: My name is Sam Cohen and I'm a writer, editor, and features journalist from New England. Lately, I find myself slowing down in relation to the color blue. It's something that keeps appearing to me over and over in books and poems and movies and songs, but in physical ways as well. The bedding I recently bought is blue. My new lampshade is patterned blue. The blue spines on my bookshelf call out to me. From across the room. I open an email to read a friend's newsletter and find that it's called "The Blue Stems are Blowing." I'm not sure what it is about the color blue that's speaking to me more clearly now than it used to. I'm thinking about Maggie Nelson and how she devoted an entire book to her obsession with the same color. I'm thinking of the opening lines of Joan Didion's memoir Blue Nights, where she captures what it's like to be surrounded by blue. "You pass a window, you walk to Central Park, you find yourself swimming in the color blue: the actual light is blue, and over the course of an hour or so, this blue deepens becomes more intense, even as it darkens and fades." She goes on to say on the next page: "During the blue nights you think the end of day will never come."
I think about this slowly and often as I lie on my blue bed, watching the blue light fade and allow myself to dream openly during these blue nights. I know the end of day will come that it will be followed by another and another as time unfurls before me. It's in these moments that I feel the deep, powerful wonder of what it really means to be alive, of what it really means to be lost in the blue nights. I'm not yet sure what gift the color blue is giving me, but in the meantime, I'm grateful for its ability to make me slow down, to listen to my own heartbeat. I think maybe it's giving me the gift of presence, of patience, of everything that lives in between.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Thank you so much again to Sam for sharing. You can follow Sam on social media @samcohenwriting, and now, here's my conversation with Mason Spector.
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Rachel Schwartzmann: Authenticity has never been more critical in a world that celebrates fleeting trends. In the case of an industry like fashion, and for entrepreneur Mason Spector, discerning design is just a small part of creating long-term impact and connection. As the co-founder of the Los Angeles-based clothing brand Madhappy, Spector and his team are committed to "using apparel, events, and experimental retail spaces to explore a personal expression as a means to an improved state of mind."
At first glance, Madhappy's clothing achieves this goal, and while simple in nature, there is an overarching playfulness to the brand's collections that inspires and delights. But going beyond aesthetics is where Madhappy's true style comes into play. Words like "optimism" and "community" are often associated with the brand—and for Mason, in particular, that's no happy accident. His personal experiences have culminated in building an intentional business that confronts one of the most pressing topics of our time: mental health. And this interview, Mason shared more about his dynamic upbringing, his relationship with pace, and what he's learned about the mental health journey overall.
While this conversation was recorded in the summer, Mason's slow story is truly universal, and I was so grateful for his honesty and reciprocity. But I don't want to give too much away, so on that note, here's Mason Spector, co-founder of Madhappy.
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I love the outdoors. I love camping. Nature is a huge part of how I identify my spirituality, my higher power—a lot of it lies in nature. Growing up in LA, my dad worked in entertainment, so naturally, I fell in love with film and TV. I consider myself a huge cinephile. I also really fell into sports just naturally growing up as a boy in America, I guess. So I really love playing sports, watching movies, and being outside, and I feel like I've really carried a lot of those hobbies with me today. When I think about some of those things that I really like to do outside of work or some of those like topline mental health activities, those are a few things that come to mind.
I'll try not to mention Madhappy, obviously, but I think mental health and wellness in general are really personal subjects for me and something that I'm really passionate about. So, outside of work, I work a 12-step program in sobriety, just dealing with addiction. So, really talking about mental health, working with other people, and being of service is a huge part of who I am when I really break it down and think about the things that really make me feel best in life. I think being able to share my experience and my struggles, family background, and my childhood as much as I can really in any way I can because I think—like you were saying a little bit before we started—it's not natural for people to be vulnerable and open up in that way. I think there's so much beauty and so much growth when we decide to. I think everyone has that power in them, as you said. So yeah, it's interesting to think about who you are outside of work.
Rachel Schwartzmann: We've implemented so many systems and expectations that kind of strip away our humanity, so it's great to speak with you because you've been such a champion of breaking those barriers down, creating something that's a little bit more open. And I think just on the note of your childhood, this is obviously a story that you've told a lot, but if you don't mind repeating it here, I would love to hear a little bit more about your upbringing and how your relationship with mental health has evolved.
Mason Spector: Yeah, so I think I'll give you just a long/medium [story] of my family of origin. I was born in Colorado. Like I said, my mom and my biological father, I'll say, had a pretty complicated relationship. He ended up leaving the picture when I was only about six months old. So, my mom and I went back to Michigan, where she was from. I moved in with my grandmother at the time. She had got set up with an old family friend who had also just gotten a divorce. It was sort of like you guys should hang out. They met and started dating and fell in love. He had two kids from a previous marriage that he had exited when he reconnected with my mom, and they got married. The three of us moved to LA. So now I had sort of a dad again—and throughout the story, when I say dad, I refer to technically my stepdad as my dad, but he adopted me, all those things. So, for all intents and purposes, he's my dad.
His two kids are in Michigan, and we would visit once a month from LA. So it was like I had this sort of brother and sister in LA, but they weren't really my brother and sister. It was a little confusing. They didn't live where we lived, you know, I think as a young kid, it's sort of hard to grapple with a lot of those bigger themes. Their mother—my dad's ex-wife—ended up passing away in 2002 from brain cancer, so that's when the two of them moved to LA from Michigan to come live with us. And then simultaneously, my mom and my dad had two kids of their own, so it was sort of like a beautiful blended family of five kids. [I] bounced around from being an only child to the oldest to the middle to [having] all these sorts of step and half [siblings]—and we never used any of those terms, but technically, a lot of these things that happened to me that were all out of my control.
Now look[ing] back on it [there was] a lot of instability, a lot of having to caretake, a lot of moving around, not a lot of boundaries. I think the last sort of piece to my family puzzle was in 2010 [when] my parents got a divorce, and my dad came out of the closet as gay, which really just opened up a lot for me. I think at first I was sort of caught off guard, but then really, once I was starting to unpack it, I think it really made a lot of sense in terms of some of his behavior in terms of why he had gotten the divorce in his first marriage. And a lot of dynamics started to become more clear.
I think, unfortunately, I was sort of that middle child, a black sheep who misunderstood my role as a kid. I had these two older siblings whose mom had just passed away, and I had these two younger siblings who were just a little bit too young to really know what was going on. Then, there was sort of me left in the middle. So when she passed away, that was actually the first time I went to therapy [in 2002], and that was sort of the start of my mental health journey. I feel really grateful that my mom was always someone who's encouraged us to express ourselves and share how we feel, ask questions, and really ask us how we feel and mean it, and be able to empathize with us and all of those things. So it's sort of been in me and a part of me for as long as I can remember. I always like to call it my blessing and my curse because I think, as anyone knows, once you open that book, I guess, and sort of become turned on to your own mental health or introspection or any of these things, [it] never stops. We all have those friends that we can think of who maybe haven't cracked that book open yet, and I think there's some level of bliss to that ignorance if you will. But yeah, that's a little bit of my story. I think I've gone through the ups and downs of being mad about it, wishing I could change it, accepting it, and all the above.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I'm an only child, so just to hear about the dynamics of larger families and unconventional upbringings is interesting. I, too, moved around, lived in three different states, and went to multiple schools. There are a lot of parallels actually, which we'll get into, but I wonder [about] how your relationship [with mental health] would've been in solitude.
Mason Spector: Yeah, it's interesting. My home growing up was also just the open door policy. We have a big Jewish family, so aunts and uncles, cousins, and friends [would be] in our house. It was totally like the hangout house growing up: a bunch of kids sleeping over every Friday and Saturday after sports practices, et cetera. I didn't have that solitude or that isolation at all, like you say. I think it's such an important thing for people to have to not only develop a relationship with themselves but also get time to rest, to feel like you're not being watched by other people, or [have] other people know what you're doing at all times. And I [credit] that to honestly the impetus of a lot of my addictive behavior. A lot of my addiction really was this other side of me or like personality that had to develop because I needed this thing that was my own, that I had full control over, that no one else knew about because I didn't feel any authority or autonomy in my own life because it was just so hectic and so many people [were] around all the time.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah, it's really interesting. It's a hard lesson to learn.
Mason Spector: Totally.
Rachel Schwartzmann: For this podcast, I spoke with an illustrator and writer named Ella Frances Sanders, and she identified with being really anxious. She said something that was really striking to me. I'm curious if you would agree with this, but she thinks that "people who are prone to anxiety and worry are so important because [she] feels like they're the people who can sense or notice most immediately or most intensely when things are painful, or things are wrong, or where things don't feel right." Would you agree with that?
Mason Spector: I definitely think there's some truth to that. It makes me think of a word like hypervigilance. I think people who are super anxious or paranoid or even struggle with depression, at times, they're super hypervigilant, right? They're really able to sense everything around them, and even I relate to that as well: How people are feeling moods if someone moved from over here to over there—there is sort of almost this sixth sense, like spidey sense if you will, for a lot of anxious people. I do think there is some sort of superpower. I think, for me, I've been able to channel it more in terms of being like an empath and really being able to tell when my friends or people around me are going through something or even just like reading energies and body language and all these sorts of things. But yeah, I love that quote, and I absolutely agree with it.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah. I've been unpacking my own mental health journey in the last year or so [I've been] really struggling with anxiety, and I think my therapist framed it as something along the lines of anxiety is there to help you, not to hurt you, it's just misfiring.
Mason Spector: That's good. There's a line about [anxiety] that I like a lot: Anxiety is the result of us resisting our feelings. ... We're all so smart, and we know when something is wrong or something is there. I think just as human beings, we're so good at rationalizing and justifying why it's not the right time to have this conversation, or I can't break up with this person just yet because this is coming up, I don't want to look for a new job just yet or let me give that person one more chance—all these things. I think it's really just a result of us resisting what we know and finding a way to push it to the side for a little bit or convincing ourselves that it's actually this emotion or that this is the problem instead of that. That's a line that I come back to a lot that I really like.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I listened to the [2021] episode of the Madhappy podcast where you really got into your background, and something that was coming up a lot—that I caught—was your relationship with school. [So] I'd love to talk a little bit about school and your relationship with learning and those environments and how you think they shaped you.
Mason Spector: Yeah. I think we have a system where there's sort of really only one way to do it, and we have so many kids with different learning abilities and styles and personalities that don't really fit into that one way. For better or worse, I was someone who really didn't fit into that one way, be ADD, anxiety, just my personality in general, you know, it was really hard to focus, it was really hard to sit still for a long time. It was really hard to connect with curriculums that I didn't personally find interesting or that I could convince myself mattered. Then when that [was] with other elements in school like wanting to be popular or [achieving a certain] social status, making jokes, wanting to be liked, you're sort of not only learning all these things in school but also developing these behaviors and relationships and going through puberty, talking to girls, finding your group of friends, or whatever it is.
I sort of veered more towards the street-smart, people-smart world as opposed to that book-smart, and I didn't ever really feel like I was given the proper time or energy or patience or focus even. Even going to private school: it really nurtured my learning in the right way. In my school, there were literally classes that were like [the] low class, the medium class, and the high class, and that's literally what they would call it. We didn't even realize it at the time, but now I look back, it's like, what sort of things was that telling my subconscious? I think it just never really clicked for me there, and I think I just wanted to stay on the path that everyone else goes on that that we're supposed to go on of middle school, high school, college, graduating, and figure it out. I ended up leaving school after one semester of college, and I'm so grateful I did. I think it was one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life. But yeah, school's always been really, really tough for me.
Rachel Schwartzmann: But what about learning?
Mason Spector: Totally. I think human beings are innately curious creatures that love to learn, especially when we see the power of being able to retain information or put things that we learn into practice. Even something as simple as LEGOs as a kid or building stuff; I would love to sort of build stuff in that element. Even the things I mentioned at the start of the podcast, be it entertainment, mental health, or sports ... It's like my mind's like a sports almanac.
I think all do have the potential to learn, grow, retain, and apply. I think it really just comes down to the situations and forums that those are set up in. You know, I think someone like me probably could have used a lot more one-on-one time or smaller classes at that [and] really being able to look at different subjects that actually catered to what I was interested in. It's obviously hard we can't build curriculums individually around each kid, but now I even think about when I, God-willing, can hopefully have kids one day, what sort of way can I foster a more tailored learning experience to who this kid is as opposed to just putting them in a general pool of just everyone sort of get in line.
Rachel Schwartzmann: As you talk about learning about yourself and the things that work for you and the systems that don't, you also made a comment in that episode where you said I would always do the work but never finish the job. And I think that was in relation to therapy and finding things that would work for your recovery. I just thought that was so interesting because something like mental health, is there really ever an endpoint? How do you measure time with healing and recovery?
Mason Spector: Yeah, that's a really interesting point, too. I think a lot of what I struggled with as a kid was maybe not finishing the job but [instead] just staying consistent and sticking with what I was doing. I think consistency has always been sort of my Achilles heel. I'm really good at knowing I have to do something. I'm really good at starting, and then I'm a lot harder at really continuing to do it because I think I would just experience boredom, or it wasn't fun enough anymore for me, or usually, a lot of the time, I was only doing something for other people. So once I convinced them that I was doing this thing now, then I could sort of revert back to my own ways. I think struggling with depression a lot as a kid, one of the things I tried to do was the absolute least that I could possibly do to get by and not have anyone notice me. And I think I was able to become really, really smart at how to just do enough so my mom would think I was good, how to just do enough so my teachers wouldn't call my parents, how to just do enough to stay active and seem like I was doing fine as a kid. And I think [that] even sort of led to my rock bottoms a couple of times in my adult life when I first tried getting sober or when I first tried to be faithful in some of my earlier relationships, and even most recently, I just started really working out and taking like my physical health more seriously for the first time in my life. I'm four months into that journey, and it's been sort of an up and down [process], but it's probably been the most consistent I've been in terms of my physical health.
So, I don't think it's truly about time. I've said this before, but the saying that "time heals all wounds" is total BS to me, and I think [it's] not real at all, especially from a mental health perspective. I think it really takes active work, learning, rewiring the brain and habits, and unpacking things. I don't think [someone] can just sit with their arms crossed and just wait for a few years to go by, and they'll just get over that [trauma]. There's actually scientific research that the brain doesn't work that way, and the area in our brain, I forget what it's called, where a lot of our traumas are stored, they have no concept of time. That's how something like PTSD can exist, where you can have a moment happen and take you right back to that traumatic moment that you experienced, whether it was a month, a year, [or] ten years ago. You'll physically feel like you're in that same exact moment again, regardless of how much time has passed, because you haven't properly processed that trauma and moved it to a different part of the brain where it can file it away and store it as no longer traumatic. So yeah, time does not heal all wounds.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Mm. It's an honest assessment for sure, and I think in order to stay on that journey and find a sense of consistency, you also need to be in tune with your pace. I'm curious how you would also describe your relationship with pace. How has it evolved in the context of telling these stories?
Mason Spector: Yeah. I felt like I wasn't in control of my own pace for much of my life. I wouldn't really work on myself until it was crisis time, and anyone who knows about crisis time, it's like the pace is just rapid, like, oh my god, I need to go to treatment, or I'm out of control, I need to do this. Oh my god, I'll be sober; I'll go to 30 meetings in 30 days. The pace is so hectic, and now that I'm feeling more stable, I've learned to listen to my body and what I'm feeling [and] being kind to myself and moving day by day, step by step. I love micro-goals. I have this list of topline activities I text different friends daily. If I do one of these a day, that's amazing. Regardless of anything else that happens today, I was able to do one of these ten things that bring me joy today.
So, I've learned to slow down a lot. It's not a sprint by any means. For different people that I've been lucky to be around for them [while] starting their journey, a slow pace is definitely something that I always encourage. It can be a lot. All the stuff that I'm saying for someone to open that book and go back to their childhood or what's bothering them or all these things, it's hard. Mental health has become so stigmatized because that book feels so heavy to open. [So] the easiest thing to do is obviously not to open it, right? I think for us to really talk about pace in the way that you ask and be slow and sort of just be able to turn one page at a time of that book is so much more palatable and gentle for all of us on our mental health journeys and not have to have it be this huge thing.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah. Do you think living in LA [and being familiar with that place] is helpful in terms of maintaining a steady pace? I live in New York, but I've realized you can create systems you need anywhere.
Mason Spector: Did you grow up in New York?
Rachel Schwartzmann: Technically, yeah. I was born in San Francisco, lived in Texas for a year, and lived in New York since I was 12, so almost 20 years.
Mason Spector: Okay, yeah. [Laughs] Yeah, you can relate to me about this. It's weird to still live as an adult in the place where you grew up. You know, I think there are some parts of it that are super comforting and familiar, and you don't have to think twice about it. I think there are other parts of it that are super limiting: keep you in your bubble, don't challenge you, don't help stimulate growth, and just can hinder you in that way. So it's honestly kind of hard for me to answer because I don't know the other side. But I definitely think that in terms of maintaining a pace, I think the familiarity can be a benefit in that way of: I have places to go that make me really happy [and] have really positive memories from when I was a kid, especially when we live in such busy cities as we do, to sort of be local to them—places that might be able to be a little quieter or a little bit more peaceful or a place that other people might not know about.
I think there's also the benefit of growing up here. We have such a strong community here and so many friends. I have some of my family still lives out here, so I think that's also a huge benefit for my mental health in that way that I can see people who really know me, who I really trust, who I really love in those ways. It's sort of a double-edged sword. I wish that I had a better perspective, having lived somewhere else and then come back to LA, but I don't really know.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Do you think you'll find out one day, or is LA it for you?
Mason Spector: Another amazing question. [Laughs] I think right now we have this business here—we're based out of here—so we definitely have to be here. I think when I go home and visit my mom, or my grandparents in Michigan, or stay with some family in New York, or things like that, there is something exciting about picturing a life in a new place. I think what it comes down to, for me, is really just the means that I have to live and what I want my life to look like. LA is a very expensive city, and I definitely want to have a house and a family, some space, some nature, and some green. I care more about those things, and I care less about sort of where I can get it.
I think something like community is just really important for me, so I don't think I'd be able to just pick up and set up shop somewhere where I didn't know anyone because I think it's just important for me to have people around that I can go to in that way. But yeah, it's a hot topic of discussion with my friends [and] my girlfriend. I think a lot of people are sort of wondering about those things that live in these big cities and dreaming about the other side. What about you? Do you think that you could see yourself outside of New York?
Rachel Schwartzmann: I'm starting to. My parents aren't here anymore, so I don't really have family close by—and they're divorced as well—and I've been referring to New York as a place that feels familiar, but it doesn't necessarily feel like home. So I'm kind of in this liminal space between do I want the same because it feels good and can I call that home?
Mason Spector: Where'd they move to?
Rachel Schwartzmann: My father is currently in Florida, and my mom is in Sacramento.
Mason Spector: I was going to guess that at least one of them went to Florida, but I didn't want to be too judgemental.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah. [Laughs] Yeah, I mean, it was a little bit out of his control and a little bit in it. They haven't had the easiest time, but they're both very resilient, so I think for now, they're where they're supposed to be, and I think now it's my turn to figure that out.
Mason Spector: Have you had time since you were 12 that you lived outside the city with school or anything like that, or have you always sort of been in that area?
Rachel Schwartzmann: So, I've been in Queens. I'm in Brooklyn now. Before that, you know, I lived in this very small conservative town in Texas and then, before that, the West Coast. So I feel like I've [experienced] a wide range of experiences and people and expectations, but this is the place where I've come into myself creatively, personally, professionally. But it's changed a lot for me. I just turned 30, and it's kind of that crossroads that I think a lot of us face when we get to this point in our lives. It's like: Is the hype worth it? I don't know. But I haven't just been here since I was 20, you know, I have a real stake in this place, so it's hard.
Mason Spector: Yeah, it also feels weird to, like you said, when you sort of build equity in a place, plant your roots, and have a community, and all these things, to uproot that can be really scary. And I was just talking to someone about getting a new therapist, and just the thought of starting over, I think, for people, just seems so heavy, and a lot that I think people would rather sort of just stay. But then I think that's also the complacency that I was talking about earlier that I think leads to sort of the compounding of other anxieties and mental health issues. The bottom line is that life is hard.
Rachel Schwartzmann: So keep moving! I mean, if you have the means to, there's really no reason why you can't open yourself up to new places and people, and it's interesting: I've been reading this book called Awe by Dacker Keltner. He's like an emotion scientist, and in [the book], he was talking about this term introduced by the French sociologist Émile Durkheim. It's called Collective Effervescence. Have you ever heard of this?
Mason Spector: I have! That was sort of one of the inspirations for our collaboration with Lululemon, this idea of Collective Effervescence.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah, it's really, really interesting, and just as you keep kind of reinforcing this idea of community—and the we—I think that's becoming more centered in my life in a way that it wasn't before.
Mason Spector: Yeah. What I love so much about Collective Effervescence is that it's like these things that everyone experiences that are almost spiritual. They can't really explain that they don't really know why or how, but it's just energy, and it's just spirit. And I honestly think those are really the most profound and beautiful things for me in life.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Absolutely. I mean, obviously, it's so central to Madhappy, and I'd love to talk a little bit about the brand if you don't mind. In the spirit of community and creativity, can you share some of your earliest or most resonant memories of design and creativity? Whether it was something you experienced or something you witnessed with somebody else.
Mason Spector: For sure. Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind is just not taking yourself so seriously. I started another company before Madhappy [with a former partner] after I had dropped out of school, and we didn't know what we were doing, but we felt the need to want to do it the right way or be legit: work with these expensive materials and make sure that we worked at the nicest manufacturers and that everything was so proper and that we got in these stores and not these stores and all these other things. And I feel like it was all just sort of trying to impress a certain type of consumer or a person or have a certain level of status that made us feel important or that we mattered. And I think obviously, you know, we learned a ton from that experience, but it didn't end up working out. Then, through the lull that came after that, this idea of Madhappy was born. I think it was really born on a lot of these principles that were the exact opposite of that [venture]. We were really just like don't wait too long. Once you have an idea, just push it out. Don't take yourself too seriously; work with your friends, have fun. I think a lot of those principles still reside within us today.
I think it gets harder once you become successful and raise money, and the stakes come into play. But I think even now, when we talk about 2024 and beyond, a lot of those elements really foster the most fruitful creativity and really inspire me the most. I think back to our early days: we took whatever space we could get for our first popup, and we used the little money we had to make it as good as we could. People came, and they had a great time. I think a lot of the details and the ins and outs that creatives sort of struggle with don't matter as much as we feel they do to the consumer or to our community.
You always want to get it perfect as someone who's creative, but I think there's so much value and lessons that we can learn just by putting shit out. You know, I always use this example: Go and Google what the first episode of The Simpsons looked like. Think about what it looks like in your head. If Matt [Groening] had waited until it looked like what it looks like now to put it out, [he] wouldn't have made the show, or someone else would've made it first. You know? I think there's a lot of wisdom and humility in just being able to create the best art that you can make at the time and put it out and keep learning and keep going, but don't wait for a moment that you don't know when it's going to come.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I mean, you mentioned earlier that you've had struggles with control. Has that been amplified running a business? How does working in a creative industry help you kind of release that control a bit?
Mason Spector: Yeah, I think there's been a lot of like ups and downs. You know, I think even a big theme that I've had this year, as the founder of a business, has been letting go. It's interesting as a founder, you sort of do more and less at the same time naturally. It's something that's so personal, and we've put in so much time on [that's] obviously really hard to sort of let go of in any way. But I think after just sort of reading books and looking at other people who we admire who have run really successful businesses, I think something that they do that's really special is like they let their leaders lead. We bring in people who we trust and believe in to help grow this company and sort of spread our mission. And I think if we're still being too controlling or making every decision or not being able to empower these people, then we're not really doing our jobs right.
I also think that, as a founder, you need to sort of get out of the forest a little bit to really see the trees, really think about growth and bigger moves that you can make, really think about the team, and really just be able to get a holistic perspective on the business. So I think it's been something that I've sort of had my ups and downs with. We're in year seven now, so obviously, it really changes every year, if not every quarter, based on priorities and goals, based on personnel, the size of the team, and all these other things. So yeah, it's definitely a balance, but I feel like really being able to let go is so freeing, and I think we found that it actually has more of a positive effect on the business than a negative.
Rachel Schwartzmann: And on your mental health, I would assume, too.
Mason Spector: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I feel really lucky that we've been able to sort of weave this mental health mission into our business, which has been really amazing. I get to have a conversation like this with you on a workday, which just makes me feel great. I can talk about this stuff, and it's a positive way for me to go about my day and interact with the rest of the team. So I feel really fortunate.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I mean, where do you draw boundaries, though? You speak so openly and beautifully about your story and the things you've overcome, but do you feel like there's a certain line that needs to be drawn when it comes to talking about these things?
Mason Spector: Yeah. I think anything that just applies to me, I am sort of boundaryless in that way. I think where I start to think about boundaries and how I've tried to compartmentalize my life a bit in a healthy way is with my relationship with my girlfriend or with other friends. [I] try not to enmesh everything so much. So, when I get home, [I] try and not take work home.
I recently just got back from a trip, and I sort of told myself, Alright, this day I'll check my email; this day I won't check my email and [I] really try and be super intentional. I think my partner and our CEO, Peiman, does a really great job of this. I really look up to him. He'll have some days on the weekend where he just won't check his phone for like 36 hours straight. He'll just live with no phone, which I think is really, really amazing. He lets us know before, and all these sorts of things, but I feel like it's just really being able to sort of pick your spots of knowing like, Alright, we just finished a big project, we just opened up Chicago, maybe we have a moment to breathe. Alright, this is a time when I know I really want to take advantage of my mental health and be a little bit more strict with my boundaries and things like that. So I think it really just comes down to being super open and honest with myself and both my partners at work and my partner at home and really looking at every week or month as its own little time to see how am I turning up or down sliders at this time.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I guess it's probably challenging. I mean, fashion, as an industry, doesn't always permit that; it doesn't always have good boundaries or guardrails in place. Do you ever feel at odds being in this industry, given Madhappy's stance on mental health and community? I mean, there are so many undercurrents in the industry about the environment and inequity. I'm curious how you kind of navigate those things.
Mason Spector: Totally. I see it as just an amazing opportunity. You know, here's this titan, multi-billion dollar industry that is [both] broken and amazing in so many ways. I think clothing, in general, is underrated as an industry. We all get dressed every single day and have closets filled with so many clothes, right? What an amazing opportunity to be able to tell a story, to be able to inspire change, to be able to bring people, to be able to build a company and a culture that empowers people to take their mental health seriously and be themselves and learn and grow and evolve in their career.
I think the landscape, in general, has also become so much more inclusive. In the last decade, people like Virgil [Abloh] and other amazing creatives have broken down barriers. Growing up, I feel like it was all these different categories of fashion, streetwear, and luxury, and now it just feels so broken down [and] everything is sort of just one. And you have the most famous fashion houses collaborating with small streetwear brands. Even like us, we do amazing partnerships with different food and beverage companies or sports teams or IP, the likes of collabs and social media and accessories, and all these things have just made it so much more of a melting pot for different companies and people to work together and tell different stories and share different ideas. That's an amazing place where fashion can head. And then I think there's obviously everything on the other side of the coin that you mentioned as well. But we really choose to view it as an amazing opportunity to come into this massive industry and promote some sort of change.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I mean, it comes across. It, to your point about consistency, seems to be a through-line since the brand's inception. And I'm curious as you think about storytelling in the context of Madhappy, how would you define slow storytelling, and how does that impact what you want to do with the brand and its narrative moving forward?
Mason Spector: One word that I think of is feeling. I think that with all of our content, storytelling, product, retail experiences, and all these things that we do, the main goal is to provoke [a] feeling for someone. We want that feeling to be along the lines of optimism and playfulness and youthfulness and wittiness, all with these undercurrents of creating conversation around mental health. That's really what we think about, and something that we try to make sure comes across in everything that we do. There are obviously so many different ways to story-tell now and so many different ways to engage with people. The space is more crowded than ever, so I think that's also why we're trying to diversify how we tell our stories and where we tell our stories.
Like with [our] podcast, or with The Local Optimist [magazine] or with our own [dot]com, email, SMS, our retail experiences. We're opening up our first flagship store, which will be really exciting, and then [we'll] continue to do sort of our seasonal popups in all of these amazing locations. The world changes fast, and people are spending their time in a lot of different places. How can we make sure that we're showing up in all these areas authentically ourselves with integrity, with our mission, sharing our stories in that way, and meeting people where they are? Mental health is obviously extremely stigmatized, and it's come a long way in the last six or seven years since we started the business, but [it] has a lot longer to go. I think we're really committed to staying true to that mission, even if it may turn some people off or if it may mean that we won't grow as fast as we could if we didn't talk about mental health all the time. So we're super aware of that, but I think we're just really interested in how we started, what sort of makes us special in that way, and [we] aren't really in any rush to do it. Slow and steady wins the race in that way.
Rachel Schwartzmann: For sure. This is a little bit of a new direction, so I hope you don't mind me switching gears a little bit, but as you kind of think about Madhappy's trajectory and your own, I wonder: a lot of us often lump grief and mental health together, but I think it's important to give grief its own moment, especially since it can coexist alongside moments of joy or happiness. And I'm sure it's a lot to look back and be like, wow, like these things happened, this is no longer part of my story, but it was there, and it meant something, and I wanted to ask—and if you're open to sharing—is there anything you're grieving right now? And if there is, has it brought you any clarity—whether it's personally, professionally, [or] creatively?
Mason Spector: That's a really good question. When you said the word grief, the first thing that came into my mind, is Kendrick [Lamar] has a line on the record that he just put out—his most recent album—of like everybody grieves different[ly]. That's the first thing that I thought. Grief is a natural, inevitable part of life, as you mentioned. And then I think to that point, everyone has their own sort of way of dealing with it, of experiencing it, of going through it. Some are faster than others. Some people need to be really busy all the time. Some people need to be by themselves.
I think the biggest word that comes to mind for me after that is acknowledgement—really acknowledging the grief and not suppressing it.
I don't think I'm grieving anything major. I think there are a couple of friendships in my life that I could say I'm sort of maybe not fully grieving, but just sort of sitting with accepting [them]. Obviously, it's hard when people disappoint us. It's hard when we maybe invest time and energy into other people, and then they don't really respond with that same time and energy, and it's completely out of our control. But it's natural for human beings to feel disappointed and let down. So I'd say probably just a couple of friendships [are things] I might be grieving or dealing with some confusion.
I think it's also hard as someone's thinking and talking about mental health all the time, I really have to check myself on [saying], well, if they would've just listened to me or I know what they should do better than they know what they should do. Take my advice. See what happened. That kind of stuff [I need] to let go and stay on my side of the street and keep my side of the street clean.
In that way, I think it's so normal and natural, and I think there's obviously a lot of sadness that comes with that. That's another normal part of life that happens. I actually like to be sad. I find a lot of value in the sadness. It can be dangerous for me because it's so comfortable. But I do enjoy feeling sad. But yeah, that's a great question. Can I ask you the same question? Is that okay on this show?
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah, of course. I'm grieving a lot of things. I had a really hard time with the pandemic. I have really extreme health anxiety, so it really kind of came to the surface last year.
Mason Spector: Do you have health issues?
Rachel Schwartzmann: I have had some health issues ... my mom is a cancer survivor, and I've been around a lot of intense health moments. Alongside that, I also closed a business I started in my early twenties. You know, everything all at once. I learned a lot, and I was just thinking about this and kind of grieving what I thought that was going to be, who I actually was, and what it actually was. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say I'm grieving my youth, but I just turned 30, and I'm not afraid of it, but there is that kind of subtle threshold that you cross and you're like, okay, you're supposed to "know" how things work now. There's really no more excuses. You don't have the whimsy of youth to fall back on. So yeah, I think there's been a lot of amazing change, but with that, I've had to reckon with things that I've had to say goodbye to. But I think that's a privilege because it's a catalog of experiences I've had, and being able to reflect on them from a place of good health—I am in good health now—is great. So that's definitely the clarity that has come with it.
Mason Spector: Yeah. If you have any advice for the 30 club, I'll be joining you next year.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Nice. Yeah, it's fine. [Both laugh] It's great. I mean, we're in a country that idolizes youth, so it's just kind of detaching from those expectations.
Mason Spector: Yeah. I always think, too, as you said, it feels like when we're 30, we're supposed to know everything. I have it figured out. As a kid, I would look at my older cousins or those who were younger than I am now, and I'd just be like, This person is such an adult. They know everything. They have it all figured out. Even now that I have a more casual peer-like relationship with my parents, I'm like, you guys are in your sixties [and] you don't even have it figured out. No one ever really has it figured out. [By] accepting that, we can hopefully get closer to maybe trying to figure it all out.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah, it's humbling you start to see your parents as people.
Mason Spector: Totally—not these superheroes. I think the sooner that anyone can take their parents off that pedestal is a blessing.
Rachel Schwartzmann: For sure. I think part of the process for me has been turning statements into questions about everything because I really don't know a lot in the sense of the bigger things. And I think that's part of the journey. You know, you're always supposed to kind of be open to possibility and keep the curiosity intact and the stamina for curiosity because all these things that we're talking about, mental health, slowness, pace, I choose to think of them as practices, something that you have to work at. And it's not always easy or linear, but for me, questions over statements is helpful.
Mason Spector: Oh, that's good. I like putting a question mark at the end of everything. You know, something [that] has been helpful for me and [allowing for] forgiveness, kindness, and gentleness for my family members or other peers is they did the best they could with what they had. That's really powerful for me, even [if] someone made a wrong decision or who I was upset with. It's really accepting that statement and knowing that we're all just out here doing the best with what we have.
I think it's our job to try and have as much as we can in terms of opening up our book, reflecting, learning, or growing. And I think the more we grow that emotional and mental toolbox, the more we have to (hopefully) make more positive and informed decisions. But I try not to really judge anyone, even my own parents or family members, for doing something that I think is wrong. [It's] just really being able to accept that they're doing the best with what they had at that time.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I think another thing about growth is that it does happen in stillness. Something that we've been conditioned to be afraid of is stagnant, or you know, you're not growing in a visible or momentous way. But I think part of the last year for me has been to retreat, which has been a form of healing.
Mason Spector: Yeah. I think about what I was saying earlier: everyone grieves differently, everyone heals differently, and everything's different. For me, that would not work because if I were to isolate, I would, you know, fall into some negative behaviors and be triggered in this way, X, Y, and Z. Maybe my depression would start to creep in, right? But for you, you needed that sort of space and breath to really grow and heal in that way. And I feel like that's the bottom line to me of why mental health is so stigmatized and why it's so hard. It's the most case-by-case individual personal thing that we all experience. If it was one size fits all, we'd all go to the mental health store and get right. But it's not that way. And I think that really there's so much beauty in that, and I think we love to talk about the juxtaposition of everything I just said, but then also we're all from the same species that can only feel the same four, five, or six emotions at the same time. So, there is so much that we have in common at the same time, and I think that's just like the beautiful duality of it all. The mad-happy of it all, if you will.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Yeah, for sure. And I think just on the subject of differences and questions and curiosity, I'd love to know if there's a question you hope people start asking you more often, whether it's about mental health, creativity, anything that comes to mind.
Mason Spector: Ooh, let's see. Do you always ask this of every guest, or is this new?
Rachel Schwartzmann: I do, and it always stumps everybody. [Both laugh]
Mason Spector: It's the ultimate stumper... I guess it's a little bit more like niche, but I think a couple of times that I've opened up about my sex and love addiction, I think a lot of people never even heard the term before or don't really understand it. There are a lot of questions and baggage that come with that disease. And I guess maybe not necessarily do I wish that someone would ask me about it every single time, but I think it's something that I speak about at times that's a part of my story that I don't think enough people are informed about and that I think affects a lot more people than [we] realize. You know, even for me, I probably struggled with sex and love addiction since I was 15 years old, and I never even heard about the phrase until I was like 24. So I think it's not as common as AA or NA or some of these other 12-step programs that we're a lot more familiar with, but I think that's something that I would like to talk about more or that I think more people should know about.
Rachel Schwartzmann: That's a big one.
Mason: Yeah.
Rachel Schwartzmann: Do you have a question you would ask yourself now that you've gone through all of these things in your life?
Mason Spector: One of the steps is like a fearless moral inventory. I think that I would've enjoyed—maybe, that's not the word—I would've benefited from someone sort of just... I mean, it's hard because so many of my behaviors were secretive in that way, but I think I would've benefited from just knowing about this addiction and being able to read some of the characteristics or traits and really seeing how I was relating to every single one of them. And yeah, I think just being more informed.
I think there are so many people on their mental health journeys [and] we don't even know what's going on because we're not familiar with the terms or the symptoms or whatever it is to be able to even identify what we're struggling with. Someone who might have crippling anxiety might be manifesting [it] and getting stomachaches all day, so they just think that they're sensitive to that food, but like it's really anxiety, you know what I mean? I think that I really could have benefited from learning more about my body, the behaviors, and the impact that they were having on me. And you know, I feel like I was aware of all of my puzzle pieces scattered across the table, but I wasn't really able to put them together in any way to see, oh, this is happening because of this, and this is because of this and that piece actually needs to go over here. ... It's all of that. So I feel like just [having] someone who could have helped me sort of put those pieces together. But then also, I mean, I was a teenager and a young 20-something, so I suppose part of it is stumbling along the way to try and figure it out.
Rachel Schwartzmann: I think we ultimately learn how to pay attention to things. I think that's what early adulthood is: learning what you pay attention to [and] how you pay attention to it. But yeah, it's a humbling process for sure.
Mason Spector: Totally.
Rachel Schwartzmann: So there's so much we've covered in this conversation. I'm sure we could touch on a number of different things, but I'd love to close things out on the note of attention and have you share what you'll be paying attention to—or want to pay more attention to—personally, professionally, and creatively.
Mason Spector: Personally, as I said, I just got back from vacation, and I had a great time. I sort of wanted to not be so disciplined on a lot of my fitness stuff, so I indulged in the cuisine. I didn't work out every day [with] the idea that I would come back and really commit myself in a strong way. It fell at a good time, [I’m about] halfway through my fitness journey. I've honestly been blown away by the positive impact that just working out has had on my mental health. I think that the working out world can get kind of like a bad rep when you see, I don't know, maybe big bodybuilders or people who are restricting themselves from eating because they want to look a certain way. But for me, working out has been the best antidepressant of my entire life. So, I'm really looking forward to continuing to do that and meeting my goals on a personal level.
Professionally, I would love to pay more attention to our team and the people here. We can get so busy and just checking off tasks or having these meetings or opening up these stores, collaborations, [and] all of these things. I think I'm finding a newfound motivation to pay more attention to people who are here and like being able to spend more unscheduled time with a lot more members of the team, not just saying, alright, here's our 25-minute check-in, but having more space just to sit and listen to different people, which I'm hoping to be able to pay more attention to.
Creatively, we have some really, really exciting things that are coming up. As I mentioned, we have our first flagship store opening in Los Angeles. It has a really cool sort of interactive component. We're also launching our first edition of the Local Optimist magazine, which I'm really, really excited about. So I think it's sort of all these other initiatives—maybe just outside of direct apparel—that I think are such amazing vehicles for community building and conversation around mental health [and what I'm] naturally gravitating towards a lot more as I start to get older and do more shows like this or share my story in that way. As I said at the beginning of the show—to close the loop—being of service and bringing people together is truly one thing that brings me the most joy in life. So, figuring out how we can continue to do that through the brand ways that make sense for the business as well is what I'm hoping to pay more attention to.
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Rachel Schwartzmann: That was my conversation with Mason Spector, co-founder of Madhappy. You can learn more about Madhappy at madhappy.com or follow them on social @madhappy. You can also follow Mason on social as well @masonspector. Be sure to pre-order my forthcoming book, Slowing, anywhere books are sold, and stay up to date with episodes, book details, and more at slowstories.substack.com or my personal channel @rachelschwartzmann. I'm Rachel Schwartzmann, and you've been listening to Slow Stories. Thank you so much for tuning in.